Owl convo re: notes on torture from the last couple of years

It’ll just be collecting scattered thoughts on my end, no structure in mind.
Most everything I’ve learned about it comes from Tom Kratman (years ago), Nick Land, Douglas Valentine, and Banned Hipster.

not a bad line-up, in fairness
pity hipster stopped blogging

True. However! https://threatenedhipster.wordpress.com/

he was always incredibly insightful

It was often hard for me to extract the insights, he does a different flavor of shitposting than I do.
Similar to Bice.
Or excuse me, similar in the sense that I have trouble telling what he’s saying sometimes.
You have to slow down and play with the words for a while to sort out the jokes and the ideas, and I don’t usually spend that time.

jokes are an excellent vehicle for inarticulable truths, and thus an excellent foundation for a more nuanced intellectual examination of ideas
anyone that tells you otherwise has a deficient sense of humor

“It’s just a joke.”

nothing ever truly is

No such thing.
Great minds.

thought police are correct on that front

It must first be admitted that torture is lindy. Primitive people like the Native Americans are often famous for their creative cruelty.
So it’s clear that part of the motivation behind torture is the fun of doing it.

The conventional wisdom is that torture is not useful for obtaining useful information. Kratman’s thesis is that it can be, but you have to follow a proper method.
It’s basically a moot point because almost no one ever does anything right. But if you’re interested, the idea is detailed in the Carerra series (and in some of Kratman’s comments around the internet which would be more difficult to track down)

In broad strokes, it’s Pavlovian training. You ask questions you know the answers to (“What is your name?”) and make it very clear correct answers will be rewarded and incorrect answers will be punished. You escalate slowly, exercise enormous patience, and as the interviewee begins to believe you’re omniscient you gradually move into areas where you don’t actually know the answers, but always interspersed with questions you do know the answers to (like a Skinner box).
The problem is that the interviewer tends to a sense of his own omnipotence and omniscience after holding God-like power over another human being for a prolonged period. Megalomania is a very common career hazard, but the one trait you need in abundance is self-control.
Hearkening back to the lindyness of torture, it’s worth mentioning explicitly that there must be an evopsych reason for torture being at least partially fun.
Probably in this case it’s the adaptiveness of being feared for your reputation.
Like Machiavelli said, fear is a reliable source of influence, and influence is a type of power that scales up.
The idea of getting information from torture isn’t new, e.g. the Greeks, but it may always have been a rationalization for civilized people wanting to do it. I’ll leave that question open.

or just the thrill of power
re: why some people enjoy it

Yeah, that’s the fun of it.
But why is it fun? Because apparently it was adaptive.

perhaps it’s a confluence of playfulness with hunting instincts
kind of like how cats will sometimes play with their food

Good point.

there’s an eloquent way of putting it but i’m having toruble translating the visual into words

“Why doesn’t she just kill the poor mouse?
Cats have a reputation for cruelty for one reason in particular: they have a tendency to play with mice and other prey until the victims are totally overcome with fear.
“Cats are opportunistic hunters and must be ready to stalk and catch any prey they discover by chance — even if they’re not hungry,” Turner explains. By playing with the live prey, the cat is acting out this inner conflict. “It seems cruel, but it is a necessary process developed by evolutionary selection.”
As early as the 1970s, researchers studied why cats play with their prey instead of killing them immediately. The bigger and more dangerous the prey, the longer the cat plays with it, reported Maxeen Biben from the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill, USA, in the journal Animal Behaviour. Rats stayed alive longer than mice. 
Biben assumed then that cats were just careful — the bigger the prey, the more dangerous it could be for the cat. Therefore, cats approached slowly and played it safe before they came close enough to the animal that they could kill it with a bite. Biben also found that the hungrier the cat actually is, the faster it kills.”
Don’t know if I trust that study, it doesn’t have a solid feeling to it.

but there’s an interesting idea in there about a tension between factors leading to playing
which, since we’re equating playing with torture, could be a hypothesis
we torture when we can’t decide to kill or whatever
though that wouldn’t equte with the long history of torturing prisoners before killing them
or killin ghtem intentionally through torture

Well, that’s a different factor.

The point of medieval torture, for example, was:

  1. False confessions: this is the most reliable use case for torture
  2. Terror: to express the power of the sovereign (similar to public executions)
  3. Justice: to punish criminals for moral outrages
  4. Spectacle: to strengthen the state by broadcasting mind-bending entertainment products
  5. Deterrence of future criminal behavior
  6. Fun
    There’s probably a simple element of bureaucracy as well, the longer it goes on as an institution.
    You aren’t paying these torturers not to torture people.
    Gene Wolf’s “Shadow of the Torturer” was a good treatment of that aspect.

Most of these also apply to modern torture regimes like the Phoenix Program.
The modern West’s contribution to torture is its use for brainwashing.
This is apparently useful for creating zombie-like MK Ultra psychopaths like many of the ISIS fighters. However, my impression is it’s a lot less expensive to just find natural psychopaths in the wild and pay them.
I should give credit to Hank Oslo for the observation that it’s cheaper and more reliable to pay a psychopath to assassinate someone than to kidnap someone, regress their personality to childhood, raise them like they were your own child, and then get them to assassinate someone.
Sounds like a lot of trouble. More likely it’s just an excuse for sadists to put on the government form for research grants to continue their studies.
The brainwashing aspect, as it still exists, is probably a vestigial institutional growth from the last century’s focus on psychological experimentation for the refinement of propaganda and crowd control theories.

well i can see it being an attempt to have absolute control over your tools in a way you can’t with a hired gun

In that case I suspect it’s best to start with children and raise them as child soldiers, in which case you don’t need to regress their personalities.

fair point

On the other hand, maybe you aren’t thinking that clearly about it if you’re a psychopath who wasn’t smart enough to go into investment banking.
Psychopaths aren’t terribly clear-headed people and they don’t do lengthy trains of thought. That’s a common misunderstanding about them.
It’s more like “See banana behind window, smash window.”
That only seems clear-headed if you’re a normie who thinks social pretensions are the only reality.
Maybe that’s part of the attraction to noble savage theology.
For starters, it probably makes more sense to go inside the store and steal the banana without breaking the window, if you’re intent on stealing the banana.
Even more sense to pretend you aren’t stealing it and try to get away with it, to have less trouble afterward.
More direct isn’t always more direct, if you take my meaning.
The trouble being that normies don’t see social conventions as tools, but rather as a part of their identity, religion, etc.

and normies wouldn’t behave if they didn’t take those things seriously
i too have read liddell hart hehe

Is it good?
Which book?

Strategy – B.H. Liddell Hart
i wouldn’t say it’s ground-breaking but it’s good to be familiar with the idea that the indirect approach is foten a lot more initial work but gets you a better retrun on inestment for your effort in the long run
this is applicable in most aspects of life

“and normies wouldn’t behave if they didn’t take those things seriously”

You need only see their response to The Joker, Deadpool, etc.

Oh well, the poor you will always have with you.

There are apparently two factors that are overwhelmingly important for making torture-as-brainwashing work:

  1. Coercing the prisoners to inflict the punishment on themselves
  2. Combination with sensory deprivation

Final note on the Banned Hipster contribution:
His last post was about his personal experience with MKUltra. He says he was drugged and somebody dressed up like Jesus and did a sermon, presumably to invoke his Christian priors and get him attached to the handler, but it was so hamhanded that even a drugged 15-year-old just thought “this is stupid”. He then pulled the blog, presumably because he got a call from someone informing him that edgelords aren’t allowed to post secret brainwashing techniques, even if (especially if) they’re embarrassingly hamfisted.
It’s worth noting that drugs are (apparently) not helpful for this process, and probably the opposite of helpful (similar to Freud’s use of hypnosis).
I believe the fact that they’re still used gives credence to my theory that this branch of research is vestigial rather than pragmatic.
The people who do this, institutionally, have probably learned all they can from experimental torture. I expect their scientific journals and trade magazines make for pretty repetitive reading.

there’s a joke in here somewhere about the entire pharmaceutical industry just being a cover so that some people can work up new drugs with which to torture people
and as we mentioned earlier, jokes are very particular things

About Aeoli Pera

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27 Responses to Owl convo re: notes on torture from the last couple of years

  1. MM says:

    I daresay that it may not be possible for you to get this because it would require linking your prefrontal cortex to your feelings/”the well” (direct moment) in a way that would not be possible in asperger’s for more than perhaps half a minute since the entire point is to get as far away from that as possible because, when faced, the disorder that is unleashed is simply too great. It may be just pain. Perhaps this is from too much information flow causing a cascade, or it could just be disorder of association in the recursive stream of the thalamus (from the reticular activation system that sets the global emotional state and presumably selects which situational ‘subpersonality’ or at very least set of related mental routines comes to the forefront. This all feeding back into itself and thus setting expectations and parameters for the processing of the information from ‘reality’ itself).

    “The variety of religious experience” by William James. Kabbalah. Its about exterminating the soul (RAS) aka fundamental values that are attached to magic awareness.

    Something that makes me wonder:

    Also- shitpost

    Space Octopus Mindset

    I’ll stop poasting all over your blog now for a bit (like a day or so) since it has been a bit much in a short while.

    • ShadoHand says:

      `I daresay that it may not be possible for you to get this because it would require linking your prefrontal cortex to your feelings/”the well” (direct moment) in a way that would not be possible in asperger’s for more than perhaps half a minute since the entire point is to get as far away from that as possible because, when faced, the disorder that is unleashed is simply too great.`

      This is a lie. Aspies are in tune with their feelings. Logic comes from emotion. All the Great Philosophers would be Aspie by the words you just wrote. Which is more evidence that Psychiatry is a pseudoscience. But as Usual someone like you just has to keep defaming the good character of the adults in the room.

      Emotion is childish. Adults, specifically Grown Adult Men, use logic like idk fucking Adults.

      This is why “aspies” have meltdowns. They are surrounded by idiots that operate on emotion. So what happens is they finally get fed up with the idiocy and give the bastards a dose of their own medicine. Which they of course dont like and then blame the aspie more.

      Look if I throw a Molotov cocktail through your window and you react. You arent crazy. I am for lobbing a molotov cocktail through your window. But in Bizarro world of the Neurocrazy, if I throw a Molotov Cocktail through an “aspies” window and the “aspie” responds exactly how a Nuerocrazy would, the “aspie” is nuts. Not the nuerocrazy.

      Its so shocking that this Truth is sitting right there, and yet you scumbags refuse to alter your behavior in accordance with it.

      • MM says:

        Every time you nonsensically insult me completely unprovoked, I am not going to blame you. You can’t know any better, and your nature is what it is, though wild animals belong outside, where they can express themselves best. Especially one you have had years of experience with and know to be actually unhinged. People don’t change. Well… you certainly haven’t.

        No- I’m going to blame Aeoli. Because he knows better, this is his blog, he is ‘an actual adult’, and thus is the one truly at fault. If he wants to play with trash he can do so. If he wants a dozen ‘im the gratest’ Loaded comments, by god let him have it. If be wants scum insulting him and writing fucking bullshit in response to nearly every comment- well that just makes good sense.

        But I’m not going to sit back and just write it off as ‘retardation’. It’s masochism and its disgusting. Any time some scum wants to take a swing at me here, I’ll know its directly because of him. So do your worst, Akuma. It’s clearly what the bitch wants.

        • ShadoHand says:

          `Especially one you have had years of experience with and know to be actually unhinged.`

          Theres that word again. Unhinged. All narcs accuse others of what they are doing. You still havent apologized for doxxing 4 people.

          Or stalking me to the discord. Or freaking out at Foxes blog.

          Your reactive abuse is on display for all to see.

          Plus (https://www.cchr.org/)

          Nobody is mentally Ill except The Narcs.

          Also on this unhinged. You didnt even enage with me. You went straight to ad hominem. Like a Gamma.

          And heres the funny thing. You live in Failabama. You were born into privilege in a free state and squandered it. All for naught. You are the pinnacle of white retardary.

          `You can’t know any better, and your nature is what it is, though wild animals belong outside, where they can express themselves best.`

          But the Drunkards, Psychiatrists, and Criminal Police arent wild. The liars arent wild. If those people….ya know what. Your just w Narcissist engaged in reactive abuse and dont like it when its done to you.

          I could go on but you wouldnt listen. Let me guess “You need to change.” No I dont. God made me in his image. I wasnt born Broken. The world is broken, fallen, and filled with retarded trash that cant think.

          Sorry, little brother, but leave and go threaten to tattle on a Grown Man to his parents.

          • Aeoli Pera says:

            I mean, it’s pretty unhinged to call for genocide because people were giving you shit about smelling bad.

            • MM says:

              If you want your akuma you can keep your akuma. But I’m out.

              Have fun when he blows up and threatens someone. You will deserve it.

            • Aeoli Pera says:

              The internet is a place for talking crazy shit. That’s its best feature. When he does something that needs banning I’ll ban him.

            • ShadoHand says:

              `because people were giving you shit about smelling bad`

              Except I dont smell bad. Ive never had a woman, high smv, say anything. They are straight up lying and making shit. And I lost a good job because of their lies. Cant prove, but thats the Truth. One of them even reported me to the US Marshalls over it. So sod off.

              All these people are covid vaxxed, or most likely are, too so its not like they will be missed.

              Plus its only fair after what they want to do “Aspies” i.e. smart people.

            • Aeoli Pera says:

              Setting that aside, it’s pretty unhinged to call for the genocide of 99% of the people on earth for any reason I can imagine.

  2. furor kek tonicus ( of course the Derp State people telling you that men can get pregnant are lying about mRNA "vaccines" ) says:

    “torture”, in the sense of inflicting mental anguish ( often enough through physical means ) is commonplace throughout society and is probably present in every public school class room, between the children. sometimes from the teachers /admins as well, but of the normiefags in the classroom aren’t overtly participating most of the time
    i view it as a form of Social Domination / Game.

  3. ShadoHand says:


    Remember my fellow NeanderBrothers. This is why the Nuerocrazies hate us. Their women want us so badly. No wonder everything The Nuerocrazy Males say about us are negative childish insults. They cant fathom us not pounding all this free poontang that gets thrown our way. They think it means we are sick. When in fact they are the sick ones lacking impulse control.

  4. former reader says:

    > presumably because he got a call from someone informing him that edgelords aren’t allowed to post secret brainwashing techniques

    It could have been about something other than the “techniques” and it could have been way, way worse than a “call.”

    Look how quickly that blog was scrubbed from the various archives, google cache, way back machine, etc. What else was posted before it went dark?

  5. MM says:

    > then I’ll ban him.

    Like the first time, right? What a ‘ban’.

    • MM says:

      Thats not why Im so pissed off though. I spelled it out to you months ago.

      The problem is that you understand the most basic basic things about people. There is, practically, no such thing as redemption or character change. You, yourself, are proof of that… and I was mistaken that you could learn something as simple as “crazy ppl are trouble”.

      Well buddy, have your trouble. But really, it shows you are precisely one of those ‘unserious clown people’ you pretend to be better than.

      • ShadoHand says:

        `“crazy ppl are trouble”.`

        But doctors that murder people arent? Narcissistic Abusers arent? Dope Smokers Arent? People on Drugs Arent? Idiot Managers Arent? Gen Zers Arent? Generation Xers Arent? Baby Boomers Arent? Feminists Arent? Niggers Arent?

        No the only crazy people in America are White Millenial Men.

    • ShadoHand says:

      And MM ask yourself why you havent beem banned? Nobody likes you. Aeolis patience for you is far greater than mine. His problem with me is because I make too much sense. And can disprove all his theories.

  6. WW says:

    Sent u a msg. Thats a better place than this.

  7. Aspies Are Childish Emotional Dorks says:

    > It was often hard for me to extract the insights, he does a different flavor of shitposting than I do.

    > I have trouble telling what he’s saying sometimes. You have to slow down and play with the words for a while to sort out the jokes and the ideas, and I don’t usually spend that time.

    This is interesting because I just attempted a serious conversation with an apsie and I “felt” the same way. As far as I could tell this aspie was just repeating platitudes like an automaton.

    My take on “autism” “aspie” whatever:

    Y’all think you are Mr. Spock but in reality you are Sheldon Cooper. I have known SO MANY aspies and they ALL claim “oh I am so logical not emotional” and then five minutes later they are throwing a temper tantrum like a baby.

    One CORRECT woman said that for aspies, “emotions are like a foreign language” – unfortunately for aspies and their narcissistic, totally un-self-aware selves – you DO in fact have emotions. In fact, you are emotional babies acting out in ways that make everyone else uncomfortable.

    The blog host’s favorite commentator is the stereotypical example – weird emotional ranting that ALWAYS includes “violent ideation” – every fucking comment has some sort of emotional expression of a wish for violence.

    Yet this freak that does nothing but post EMOTIONAL fantasies of violence claims up and down he is just “logical” and “not emotional.”

    The opposite of the truth, but that is the exact point, isn’t it?

    Aspberger’s is a form of RETARDATION but because normies can trick them into doing precise forms of meticulous labor – and because aspies are EMOTIONALLY RETARDED and – LOL – so, so dumb and susceptible to social manipulation – they have now become “WOKE” and “on the syndrome” in Silicon Valley is the exact same thing as “non-binary.”

    It is a hip way to signal “I am smart!” the same way other left-wing identities signal “I am moral!”

    Honestly it is SHOCKING how ultra-emotional and immature “aspies” are while they do nothing but LOUDLY proclaim how “logical” they are.

    A bunch of fucking babies. Normies are just too polite to say it to you directly – we’re trying to spare your feelings.

    To be clear – there are people I love who are aspies. But I wish they weren’t such DRAMA QUEENS – Sheldon Coopers, not necessarily bad people but just so immature, so emotional, so prone to acting out. Everyone else has to mother them when they get tired like little boys and start getting cranky and whining.

    They are quite proud of being able to solve a Rubik’s Cube but, uh, great party trick, I guess. The other guy can fix an engine. And the other guy can dance with a lady and convince another guy to fix the engine.

  8. bicebicebice says:

    ((“So it’s clear that part of the motivation behind torture is the fun of doing it.”)) Thats a great line, and also why one should never forget why they did the right thing, chose the right thing, when it comes to other people (hint;they are incapable of change hint hint Edenism).

    Probably the saddest thing about life really. A good person can stop doing crack in an alley, a cracked personality will be on constant extremely fragile life support until they die, no matter how the fuck they spend their waking hours each day, some dared called it cope. Like painting a void with the colors of the rainbow.

    Satan and misery is winning a lot of souls right now because there is no life before death in the west. To the people in charge, I would like to say “its a lot of fun”, but im not sure how happy a beaver is when is dam is finished, it just do be like that. Forever.

    itz over

    • Tom Kratman says:

      One strongly suspects that those who find torture fun are precisely those who should be kept far, far from the power to inflict it. They’re altogether too likely to get too emotionally involved in the torture for its own sake, and neglect that they’re there to get information, for which the torture is only a means to an end.

      • bicebicebice says:


        Well put.

        One might even call it “politics” for the sake of politics.
        How horrible it must be to be stuck like that, like a tool, forever a nail banged down by a hammer or vice versa.

        The stuff of nightmares. However, here @edenism.com, we may not like each other all the time but we are not prude enough so as to not to point out each others flaws, lest we remain toolish simps forever.

        Like some fucking beaver building his perpetual damn (heh) forever. That is actually scary to me, to not be a human being, to not know when people are criticising me for my own benefit.

  9. Tom Kratman says:

    Little more involved than that. You’re describing one method. There are others that are often easier.

    The key is having a method of checking. Yes, you can use already known data. But you can also use story checking, as in when you have two people in custody and are pretty sure they know the same things. For them pain begins if their stories don’t match and does not end until they do. Or there can be one person who knows, say, where the bomb is planted, or where the hostage is being held. Your instant, or near enough to it, feedback is when the bomb is found or the hostage recovered.

    There are also some caveats. Nothing gained directly via torture ought be allowed into evidence at trial, though the “fruit of the poisoned tree” doctrine probably ought be shitcanned, too. You should also keep your torture-empowered cadre fairly small, and use it on only the most valuable prisoners on hand at the moment, who, you have reason to believe have info that you want. Otherwise it tends to get out of hand.
    Moreover, it is only civilized to give the person in custody a tour of the implements and explanation of how they are used before any pain is inflicted. He may prove cooperative without the need to inflict any pain.

    “Oh, the horror…the horror…” Think so? Lemme tell ya, there is no custodial interrogation in which torture is not of effect. That’s right, even if it’s not used, not mentioned, and if the interrogator has zero intention of using it, in the mind of the one being interrogated, it is _always_ on the table. Moreover, what is torture but the promise and reality of increased pain for failure to cooperate or reduced or no pain for cooperation? Well, we have this thing that our entire judicial system depends on, the plea bargain. You know what a plea bargain is? It is the promise of increased suffering for failure to cooperate and reduced or no suffering if cooperation is forthcoming.

    Note there’s a lot of largely lefty bullshit about torture being ineffective. For example, the leftists in Argentina had a magazine, Evita Montonera, that insisted that anyone could resist torture easily. “Ummm…no,” said leftists who were actually subject to it. Argentine forces could grab a lefty in his home or off the street at 9PM and by 8 in the morning he or she would be in a government driven car, pointing out safe houses and comrades walking on the street.

    Ah, but we shouldn’t even do it because it’s so doubleplusungood and meanmeanmean! Really? What if it is a case of a nuke planted in one of our cities? Your city? The city your family is in?

    • Aeoli Pera says:

      > Little more involved than that. You’re describing one method. There are others that are often easier.

      Do you have a link I can throw in the post for a more detailed description?

      • Tom Kratman says:

        Unfortunately, since the demise of Everyjoe.com, and the disappearance of my columns there, no. You can suggest to people that they read the Carreraverse books; those have a pretty detailed set of illustrations. I believe ADCP, at least, is a free download from Baen.

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