Rebuking SuperLutheran re: fat fetish advice

Disclaimer: I’m not any kind of credentialed expert and psychology is a soft science at best. That said, I’m probably the best you’ve got. Anyway, it wouldn’t be da blergh without occasional masturbation-posting.

On Godcast 208 at timestamp 1:25:22 an e-mailer asked for advice on dealing with his fat fetish. The tl;dr is he has normal tastes in women for the most part and has dated normal-sized girls in the past and enjoyed it, but morbid obesity (specifically morbid obesity) is also a strong turn-on. SuperLutheran suggests trying to go halfway on it, maybe by marrying a halfway obese girl or a powerlifter or something. This is bad advice and requires correction. The e-mailer should trust his moral instinct here that he should not indulge these urges.

It stems from a common misunderstanding about how fetishes work. For example, on another recent TRS podcast (can’t remember which unfortunately) they express frustration with Zoomers complaining about having a breeding fetish, because to paraphrase “breeding is literally the only thing that by definition can never be a fetish”. This is an incorrect understanding that can be chalked up to literalism about definitions over the reality of the thing, because if you were to look into breeding fetishism-type porn you would be able to say with certainty “This is pathological.” It doesn’t matter if you can’t explain exactly why, when it’s in your face it’s undeniable. That will remain true whether the explanation I offer next is any good.

There are two aspects to a paraphilia: the thing itself and a person’s connection to the thing. The thing itself could be dysfunctional by definition by being physically impossible, like giantess fantasies, or by being dangerous and unhealthy, like gay sex, and so on. There’s no healthy expression of giantess fantasies. Everybody basically understands this. Fat women are like a less serious case of gay men where it’s very unhealthy but not quite as dangerous in the short term (figure they die at 50 rather than 30). On the other hand, there are things that can be good or neutral where a paraphiliac has an unhealthy relationship with it. If your wife isn’t into handcuffs and you’re so fixated on them that it ruins your marriage, then it doesn’t really doesn’t matter if there’s a healthy or neutral version of the thing, it’s still pathological. This is where fetishism is a serious problem, and SuperLutheran’s advice could be compared to encouraging a struggling alcoholic to find a woman who drinks a bit more than average. This requires a bit of explaining about the nature of fetishes versus kinks and ordinary sexual playfulness.

Consider vanilla, Puritan sexual activity to be something like baseline procreative behavior, i.e. you don’t even technically need to see boob. On top of that baseline, there are sexual desires so normal and natural that even though they’re technically unnecessary we wouldn’t dare to call them paraphilias, such as the desire to see and touch secondary sexual characteristics or actually like your spouse as a person. On top of that, there are all sorts of associated activities couples can do that can make sex more interesting through simple novelty or by changing the flavor (adding adrenaline with public sex is a common one). That still falls within the realm of ordinary sexuality because it isn’t overly particular, it could be compared to adding various spices to your food or going to different restaurants. Lots of people like Mexican food just fine but they could also go their entire lives without it and not miss it.

Kinks are where individuals are very particular about these associated activities for whatever reason (nature, nurture, probably falls on a spectrum). This is where they don’t simply enjoy public sex, it’s a thing for them. It’s not about variety and spicing things up anymore, it’s about the spice itself (by definition paraphilias are a persistent, recurring fascination). We still aren’t in the realm of pathology though, it’s pretty normal for people to have a thing or two that they’re into persistently, other than secondary sexual characteristics, that adds to their sexual enjoyment without taking away the enjoyment of procreative sex itself. It could be compared to having a longtime hobby outside of work, or being a whiskey connoisseur without being an alcoholic.

Fetishes are where it gets pathological. Fetishism is a type of addiction that, as it progresses, replaces normal sexual desires and activity. By definition, a fetishist can’t enjoy sex in the absence of the fetish, so it has effectively replaced the marriage bed. Hence the name “fetish”, which is synonymous with phylactery, an object that contains a spirit captured from something else like a Pokeball. A comparison with other types of addiction may be helpful here. Alcohol is like a spice for enjoying company and the whiskey connoisseur I mentioned will still enjoy a barbecue with his friends whether or not there’s alcohol. An alcoholic, on the other hand, is addicted and will pursue the social lubricant to the exclusion of the social. Don’t listen to the people who tell you alcoholism is about quantity, they’re talking out of their asses, addiction is a categorical difference. (Never mind that we can’t define it exactly, it’s an informal fallacy to dismiss the existence of categories just because we can’t define them clearly.) This is useful for making a distinction between substances that are dysfunctional by nature, like meth, versus those that people merely have a dysfunctional relationship with, like alcohol.

Now that you’ve heard all my theories on the subject, it’s time for some practical observations and advice.

Vanishingly few people, if any, are born 100% genetically screwed up. There are definitely patterns in the progressions these things take over a person’s life, and they depend strongly on formative sexual experiences (e.g. your first time) and exposure to specific porn. Most people you talk to with proper fetishes will tell you that they started off being fascinated with something before puberty, say fat women, that had they lived in a different time would just have developed into an inexplicable desire for the circus to come back to town like that one time when you were ten. Clearly there are people more genetically inclined to some kinks than others (e.g. sexual sadism appears to correlate somewhat with disagreeableness), but an addiction can’t progress when there’s no material to work with. For example, there wouldn’t have been any rubber fetishists back before the year 1800 because it didn’t exist.

The main reason I warn the OP e-mailer against pursuing his paraphilia is because, like homosexuality, it’s very easy for it to progress to more extreme forms and very difficult (potentially impossible) to dial it back. For example, let’s imagine this guy succeeds in getting a pleasantly plump girlfriend as SuperLutheran advised (homosex is a good comparison because it would be about as difficult). Let’s say they’re fooling around and he busts a nut for the first time while enjoying his fetish in real life instead of just in his masturbation fantasies. That memory is now in his head forever, and it’s going to invade his mind in the future when maybe he’s married to a healthy, skinny wife. If you pursue the paraphilia and bring it more and more into reality, you can’t take it back later and erase those experiences. Just like when Milo was getting molested as a kid, that’s a part of you now. And the more you go down that road, the more you’d better hope it’s compatible with your marriage bed because if it’s not then you aren’t going to be able to enjoy it.

I split the life history thing into formative experiences and porn because of separate experiences with easypeasymethod.org and nofap. Easy Peasy is great but, as I mentioned, removing porn doesn’t make nofap any easier, or at least it doesn’t for me. I still have a huge back catalog of porn in my long-term memory that invades my mind the moment my blood sugar gets a little low or I’m getting bored and angry while doing math homework. Basically arousal will happen all on its own, and it has no trouble bringing its own imagery if external stimulus isn’t available. However, an important point is that when you quit porn your sexual imagination doesn’t get any weirder than it already is–it’s stuck replaying and recombining things you’ve already seen–which could still be weird, but at least it’s not getting worse.

On the other hand, nofap does in fact normalize your sexual desires and imagination pretty quickly. The problem is that there isn’t an Easy Peasy equivalent that simply removes the desire to masturbate, so AFAIK it’s still a game of willpower and tricks that can break down easily when work gets tough and your wife becomes unavailable (and you’re used to getting some on the regular). This is particularly important at this moment in history because people’s willpower reserves, mental bandwidth for tricks, and simple time for prayer are lower than ever. Based on what another e-mailer said on the same Godcast episode, I don’t think I’m alone in struggling more with sexual frustration during times of nonsexual frustration–specifically the e-mailer said he knew guys who are struggling with homosexual urges right now more than ever for reasons they couldn’t understand.

It’s past my bedtime and this thing is already long and winding, so I’m not going to bother with a proper conclusion.

About Aeoli Pera

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12 Responses to Rebuking SuperLutheran re: fat fetish advice

  1. Aeoli Pera says:

    Related note, I have a nascent theory that catharsis is possible given a proper epiphany of the nonsexual thing that’s not being expressed. Specifically I’ve been thinking about how furries are similar to animal-type shamans (the stereotypical animals are the same: bears, wolves, foxes, etc.) which isn’t a pathological behavior. But I think it’s not going to be a direct and simple link, but rather more like how a really good myth can lose its magic when it’s revealed to be a simple allegory. This is bordering on incoherent, so I may as well just do a couple of examples.

    I think sadism could be a repressed desire to provoke strong feelings in other people by creating artistic and theatrical experiences. I think furries may actually be natural anthropologists who see types of anthropomorphized talking animals where they’re suppressing a talent for observing types of people. I see guys getting insulted by domineering women and the words sound like those runaway neurotic internal monologues people talk about:

    “Record those nasty voices Get a tape recorder or use your computer or iPhone’s record function. In today’s smart phone era, there are many easy ways for you to record yourself. Turn on the recorder. Start talking. As with the mirror exercise, above, do not censor yourself. Be real. Let it all out. Say all of those mean, nasty, angry thoughts out loud. Get it out of your system! Then, in a day or two, play back the recording. Listen to it objectively. You will realize it sounds ridiculous. When I have coaching clients perform this exercise, they often feel disgust. They simply cannot believe they said those things. Yet before using the recorder, my clients repeated those words to themselves day in and day out. Save the recording. When your self-talk starts to become negative, play it to remind yourself of how ridiculous it really sounds. You’ll probably want to delete the recording a day or two later. It will be embarrassing.”

    Cernovich, Mike. Gorilla Mindset: How to Control Your Thoughts and Emotions to Live Life on Your Terms (pp. 27-28). . Kindle Edition.

    • Aeoli Pera says:

      In this life or the next, I’m going to have a proper theory for why all the foot fetishists are men but every woman has 200 pairs of shoes.

      • rillxn says:

        I think for men it may have to do with the fetishization of being in a state of submission and inferiority (literally kissing her feet). For women it may be to do with the soles of their feet having an exceptional quantity of sensory neurons so that the objects interfacing with them feel especially personal/representative of them. Shoes (especially women’s shoes) can also be interpreted as ‘platforms’ or ‘pedestals’. Women in general are passively (and actively) concerned with finding new and attractive ways of pedestalizing themselves.

        • Aeoli Pera says:

          >For women it may be to do with the soles of their feet having an exceptional quantity of sensory neurons so that the objects interfacing with them feel especially personal/representative of them.

          Relevant note: The feet and the genitals are right next to each other in the somatosensory cortex.

  2. Sage medic says:

    It’s a simple addiction, with lack of will power, my step sisters suffer from it, as do all prostitutes. They literally get horny from the easy money, as it represents, what they need to feed the addiction be it sex or drugs. I feel sorry for them now that I understand it. Normal intimacy does nothing to little for them, as they find it boring. Thats from the horse’s mouth, boring.

    Fetishes tend to be morally or socially unacceptable, which makes them naughty. Which increases the adrenaline… Ect, makes it more exciting, which makes them dopaminergic and addictive. Add drug and diseases, they will be lucky to live to 50 years.

    The other thing, if you’re on a list, it can work as double, triple and quadruple espionage technique. Emotionally it’s hard for people to hide their disgust for you. From there if people read your file, you can work out who has special access, be it they work for private or public institutions.

    Better to have true friends, or no friends at all.

    It’s a filter. It amazes me how many people have illegal access. It is what it is. A self defence mechanism, using disinformation, as a manipulation technique.

    • Aeoli Pera says:

      >From there if people read your file, you can work out who has special access, be it they work for private or public institutions.

      Honestly, most of them lack impulse control and will all but tell you because they can’t help flexing. “Been buying a lot of cigars online lately, you stressed out?”

      >It’s a simple addiction, with lack of will power, my step sisters suffer from it, as do all prostitutes.

      Yes, it’s a simple addiction. No, it’s not a lack of willpower, you’ll find a number of books on addiction dealing with that subject (that’s where the quantity definition of alcoholism fails). I can’t speak to the prostitutes thing but it makes sense based on the strippers I’ve known, the big difference being about half of the strippers absolutely hated their job.

      • Ned the medic says:

        Some people have will power to go cold turkey, once they hit rock bottom. Others really don’t want to be here, so they have the attitude of here for a good time not a long time, these types usually have some sort of dreadful abuse, from childhood. Everyone is a bit different. That addiction, with no will power, and a suicidal ideation is a deadly mix. It stems from past trauma and abuse, the lack of will power, is the victim chasing the dopamine, to feel good. Does that make sense?

        Ahh strippers, they weird, back in the day my mates use to get a counter meal at a strip club. We’d get in for free being soldiers. I walked in on one of my mates getting a bj from one of the girls, while he was eating, watching a strip show. No one else noticed her under the table. That stripper was his girl though. He had lots of money from his East Timor trips. Why soldiers got in for free, we all cashed up, the strippers like going home with Army jerks(something I never participated in, I stingy with money) A year latter Streety(mate above) was following me around to learn how to meet and pick up a girl friend. I was his wing man, mates do that for free by the way.

        Anyway if you want to see where shit gets weird that would be the homo and lesbo clubs. The homos see it as sacralige when one of my mates was rooting a bigirl out in the beer garden. Funny as man, gay guy, “Where’s my girl friend?”, Me “You really want to know? She’s out back in the beer garden, stark naked bent over the wooden fence, goodie is giving it to her.” Gay guy ” Oh my god, they can’t do that in here.” The shock on his face when he saw it, his gay church was being desecrated by Army jerks. Hahaha

        One of my alcoholic mates hit rock bottom that night, none of us would buy him drinks as he spent it all, he was drunk maggot. He ended up cracking onto that gay guy above, he turned gay for his alcohol addiction bro…. So shit pusher bad. Any way I confronted him the next day, told him I wouldn’t tell anyone else. He quit alcohol, got back with his girlfriend, and he transfered to the spooks(Intel). Had he not quit alcohol, he never would of Corp transfered. The Artillery unit I served in, with sufficient rank and loyal service, is a sort cut into the super spooks(ASIO), with no need for a university degree… You know the bureaucracy, the paper work, usually you’ll have the secrecy levels.

        It’s hard to get my points across, without having to write a mega screed. As I like to share tangent stories.

        Apologizes if my contradiction without sufficient explanation annoyed you. Do you not see patterns in contradictions? I do, I’m just a bit different I guess. No autism, in my family. Dyslexia, yes. It’s apart of the European warrior type. Con, you have to work harder reading and writing. Pro, you have an uncanny knack for shooting accuracy and weapons handling. The pros out weigh the cons, as no dr has ever picked it up lol, hidden family secret.

        Here’s an edenism tip, another fam secret. Apparently when I was born the old British dr, Dr Haggart commented to my Dad, that I have what is called a Kings skull, back in the UK. My family crest means, “Protector” or better translation was protector of kings. Cool huh.

  3. Ohh says:

    Surprisingly relevant book is, “The Cure for Alcoholism” by Roy Eskapa. Alcohol addiction is caused by endogenous morphine(endorphins) growing synapses to program behavior. Men also get large dumps of endorphins after orgasm. It’s why we fall asleep after sex. The purpose of the endorphins is to program in the behaviors and response to stimuli that got you to that point. For alcoholism, it can be cured at a high rate by taking endorphin blockers before drinking. When the stimulus no longer brings endorphins, the connections fade away. The book mentions that paraphilia could probably be cured by the same method: take naltrexone, or some other opioid blocker, engage in activity, and after a while the desire will fade.

  4. aiaslives says:

    Wait until you realize that all goodfeelz expressed with badfeelz get turned into badfeelz.

    Only prayer can reverse this.

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